Go(o)d.

[green_dreams]

GMail discussion of why Iblis is evil in the text, posted here for additional discussion later.

Jack: an analysis of morality/moral theory in Excolo would be interesting
I mean, so far there's been no outright explanation of why Iblis is more evil than, say, any of the gods
me: *nods*
I'm figuring it's that he's the essence of destruction.
They merely happen to destroy things, in many cases.
That it's his calling, his nature, makes him a perversion against creation.
Jack: but is destruction evil?
me: When creation is good, yes.
Jack: but creation unchecked, proliferation... --> cancer
also, my garden XD
me: He's not "whoops I broke it", though, he's an Unmaking.
* grin* Counterpoint: cancer = the destruction of balance and unity.
Jack: but then counterpoint: balance and unity = destruction of change and multiplicity * grin*
it seems that Iblis is Bad because Iblis = destruction of Stuff We Like
me: But Iblis = the destruction of the world in which all this can play out.
The murder of self and soul, the destruction of free will, the unmaking of all potential.
The annihilation/
The eater of worlds and Words.
Jack: I will be really interested to see how N fits in, btw
Iblis' own existence is a manifestation of free will and potential
if he destroys the world, does he destroy himself?
if not...it means there's something beyond this world
a chance to go again, as it were

me: I suspect he might.

Jack: can he destroy his Adversary? and N and his ilk? * ponders*

me: Not sure it means there's something to go again or if it means that creation would be crippled, limping along and damaged.

N is going to be interesting yes.

Jack: sounds like now * sigh*

which is rather Iblis' view: Adversary, dude, you totally botched this. Look at all this crap.

me: He says that's his view.

Jack: (heh, I am literally playing Devil's advocate. This is amusing.)

me: I suspect it's actually closer to "You built something flawed and loved them better than me, fuck you fuck you fuck you I hate you."

Jack: (which is why I keep wanting to pet him)

and, also, doesn't mean that what he's saying isn't true

me: But what he's saying shifts the blame.

It puts it on the Adversary, rather than on humans.

Free will, you know.

And at that point, it tends to "Oh, hey, you fucked up and what your kids do is all your fault, you made them do that."

Which is rather denying human agency to the kids, you know?

Jack: well, the Adversary did try to make Iblis bow down to Adam in the first place, which is kind of a cheek, I feel

and created beings intended only to serve

me: But.

If you accept that the Adversary created them according to the heirarchy, than it was understandable and correct.

Not that he made them do it.

But that angels should serve the ensouled.

Iblis is human.

Jack: and that depends on your feelings about hierarchy

me: Holy hell.

Iblis made the choice humans were given.

Jack: and Iblis wasn't given that choice, but took it anyway. What does that say?

me: But remember, if you're approaching this from the Christian context, the heirarchy isn't unfairly imposed; it's natural truth.

Jack: well, yeah, which is why I ain't Christian

and I'm not clear that Excolo!context does=Christian!context

me: That he made himself human through hate, and in doing so damned himself out of love.

Jack: at least I hope it doesnt

but if he made himself human, even within that context, he also has the possibility of redemption, surely

me: He does, and I believe RtM was discussing the possibility of being able to love as indicating the capacity for redemption.

Which, again, strikes me very much as a Christian view.

I mean, it's a very Boethius/Lewis Christian view.

Jack: hmm, I personally have trouble with Excolo automatically slotting into an Islamo-Judaeo-Christian framework

me: But if God is by Its nature the very source of good and love, if God is all those things incarnate and the center from which they radiate, if God is Love than rejecting him--which I don't think anyone but Iblis can do so consciously and throughly--is damning oneself.

I don't do it automatically, but it strikes me as the only way in which Iblis can be as bad as he is.

Otherwise he's a Lilith-figure.

Jack: and that's another reason I'm not Christian. To me, "God" is everything, not just the white side of the chessboard

Iblis can be as bad as he is from a human perspective

and even from the perspective of the other gods

I have difficulty with any kind of version of Absolute Evil

ditto Absolute Good

me: From a human perspective, all he does is lie, tempt, and abuse.

Jack: ...and gives people what they asked for.

me: I file that under the tempting.

I don't think of it as good and evil, more as Love and Unmaking.

Jack: tempting, or testing?

me: Tempting. I consider his goal in here.

Jack: I mean, a lot of the function he's serving seems to be bringing out what people really are

me: Testing is Tez's schtick.

Jack: (yes, but when we separate him from his intent, and look at what he's DOING)

me: * grin* But then you need to look at the context in which you're using the word "function".

From a narrative perspective?

A spiritual one?

Jack: ACK, I really want to continue, but I have to do more housework. Bahhhhhhh

me: 's'cool.

Jack: will ponder while I'm tidying!

me: Mind if I post this on my LJ?
Jack: no, go ahead!

Dear freaking lord, ^C^Ving text from chat into RTF gets *ugly* HTML. I may fix that later.

Comments

[rachel2205.livejournal.com]

Ha, I enjoy people analysing my character! XD

It's also interesting, having created the Excoloverse initially but having had all of you create it as a living place through your writing, seeing how people's perceptions of that 'verse are so varied.

I mean, I could give you my reasons for why Iblis is what he is, and how the Excolo system of good works - but even though I made up the character (in the sense that this is my version of him), you're all as likely to be right as I am, since the mythology of Excolo belongs to us all now! :)

[torrain.livejournal.com]

*grin* And I love the discussions. Of course, now having being clue-by-foured as to the existence of Julian of Norwich, I would like to add her to the Boethius/Lewis Christianity which I referenced in the chat...

[torrain.livejournal.com]

(I actually would like to hear that at some point, I think. Possibly not until I take Glass a little further--I'm very nervous about what I'm doing with the character ATM, and specifically want to avoid getting modly definitions of evil for a bit while I work through that. Even though you acknowledge that Excolo's basically a group creation, I have a long history of deferring to a mod/Storyteller for such things as... oh, I don't know... Humanity or Morality checks.)

Also, a quicknote: when I referred to Glass's perspective as folkloric, I'm pretty sure I accidentally used a word that has a specific academic meaning. And I did not intend to, since I am not precisely clear on that meaning.

[sivi-volk.livejournal.com]

Bearing in mind that a lot of this is me making stuff up:

Azrael despises Iblis because Iblis, in his arrogance, broke faith with the creator and his purpose. It's not the destruction per se which angers Azrael (who is, after all, intended to be The End of All Things) but that the destruction spits in the face of all Iblis should have been. As if someone with a great gift for healing used it to go about maiming people.

Mind you, Azrael sees the purpose of God's first children to be to support, inspire, and guide humans to their destiny, whatever God intends that to be. He's very duty oriented - I found this story about him:

THREE mighty angels were standing before the throne of Allah with the most profound reverence, waiting to fulfil His high behests, and Allah said to one of them, "Descend to the Earth and bring hither a handful of its dust." On receiving this command the messenger, with swift wing cleaving the atmosphere, descended to the Earth, and gathered a handful of its dust in obedience to the most High. No sooner, however, had he begun to do this, than the whole world shuddered and trembled from its centre to its circumference and groaned most pitifully; and, moved and startled by the distress and anguish which his attempt had caused, the gentle angel let the dust which he had gathered fall back, earth to earth, and returned weeping and ashamed to the Presence of Him that had sent him. And Allah said, "I blame thee not, it was not written on the tablet of destiny that this should be thine office. Stand now aside for other service." Then Allah

p. 177

said to the second of the three angels, "Go thou, and fetch a handful of Earth's dust." He, too, flew swiftly down to Earth and tried to gather up a handful of its dust, but when he saw how the Earth shook and shuddered, and when he heard its groans, the gentle angel could not do the deed but let that which he had gathered fall, dust unto dust, and lifting up himself, he returned ashamed and weeping to the Presence of Him Who had sent him. And Allah said, "This task was not for thee. I blame thee not, but stand thou too aside, and other service shall be thine." Then Allah sent the third angel, who descended swiftly, and gathered up the dust. But when the Earth began to groan and shudder in great pain and fearful anguish, the sad angel said, "This sore task was given me by Allah, and His Will must be done, even though hearts break with pain and sorrow." Then he returned and presented the handful of Earth's dust at Allah's throne. And Allah said, "As thou the deed hast done, so now the office shall be thine, O Azrael, to gather up for me the souls of men and women when their time has come; the souls of saints and sinners, of beggars and of princes, of the old or young, whate’er befall; and even though friends weep, and hearts of loved ones ache with sorrow and with anguish, when bereft of those they love." So Azrael became the messenger of Death. 1

http://www.sacred-texts.com/asia/flhl/flhl30.htm

[torrain.livejournal.com]

I'm thinking I should have used capital D and C for destruction and creation. How would you feel if I modified it to say that Iblis wishes to be the unmaking, to not kill but destroy?

[simon-klavec.livejournal.com]

I wasn't particularly disagreeing with any of your points. In what you say, Azrael would see blasphemy in the purest way. Iblis to him is like a brother who, having been punished for playing with another child's toy, wishes to break that toy to spite both the child and his father.

Maybe that's it - Azrael sees it less as hatred and more as jealousy and spite.

[snakey.livejournal.com]

And I guess I have trouble seeing jealousy and spite as evil, because those things are such understandable emotions. Yeah, Iblis is bad (bad bad bad bad bad) news, but I have trouble seeing even Iblis as Evil with a capital E. Maybe that's because, at least in the Excoloverse, I'm seeing morality as residing in actions rather than in individuals. Iblis is *doing* evil - but so are a lot of the characters. (In my own life, I'm clsoer to being a virtue ethicist, but that's a whole 'nother kettle of kittens....).

And part of it to me is that Iblis is God (with a capital G, and a /-dess added as one sees fit) as much as any of the characters, human or small-g god or supernatural whatsit. Coming from a panentheistic POV, I don't know that I'm able to see Iblis as Not-Of-God.

I guess what it boils down to is that I don't believe in Evil in the dualistic sense.

(OT, out of the context of the game - somewhat - And I think what you said about Iblis being a Lilith-analogue is interesting, because that's a long-existing current of thought at least as regards Lucifer (as distinct from Muslim-Iblis). And as we discussed before (I think you were in that discussion?) to the Yezidis the Iblis-figure *was* redeemed, cooled the fires of hell and now stands with his feet in hell and the feathers of his peacock tail spread among the seven heavens - bridging all realms of existence, all moral universes and the divide between god and man. The serpent path between Kether and Malkhut on the Tree of Life, if you like (and of course, Kether is in Malkhut and vice versa). The mending of the vessels, too. What, Lilith comes into the game and you expect me *not* to get Kaballistic?! *grin*)